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Interview with Judy Cushing

Recent Teaching History
Student Originated Software; 1995-96; 1997-98; 1999-2000
Environmental Change and Health; Fall 1996
NSF-funded research; 1996-97; Spring 1999
Seeing the Forest and the Trees; Fall 1998- Winter 1999

Recent and Current Areas of Interest

I taught the first offering of Student Originated Software (then called The Business of Computers) in 1982, have taught it every other year since (except when I've been on leave), and intend to teach it for the foreseeable future. Thus, I must say that my primary interest is working with students to understand what people (from many different areas) want to do with computers and figuring out how to make that happen. Software development is an inherently interdisciplinary, collaborative effort that involves bringing a group of people together who understand computing, technology, how people use technology and the "domain" (i.e., the application area). Evergreen is a great place to do that work.
Given the above, the primary intellectual tenet that underlies my teaching is that the most interesting questions and critical problems of the world cannot be effectively addressed by individuals working in isolation. or even by teams working within one discipline or sub-discipline. This seems obvious, but collaborative and interdisciplinary work is often the exception rather than the rule. For example, in my own discipline the databases people don't often talk to the people in operating systems or programming languages, and, as a result, certain critical issues are not addressed with the proper scope or talent.

An Evergreen education provides the foundation for students to learn how to work across disciplinary and sub-disciplinary boundaries (a form of diversity). The flip side of this coin is that I believe strongly, unlike some of my colleagues, that in order to work on big or interesting questions individuals need to bring disciplinary knowledge, skill or ability -- a foundation. I think disciplines have something to offer and that not learning a discipline is throwing out the baby with the bath water. Where I differ from other colleagues who "believe in disciplines" is that I think that the disciplinary knowledge students need can be gained in one or two years of serious study. I think almost every program should have components of both breadth and depth, but I don't think the particular content area is critical. Which particular content is incorporated is important to program themes, but not terribly critical for the student in the long run - in the long run the experience of depth is what will enable graduates to learn new things in adequate depth to address interesting questions and solve critical problems. In the long run the disciplined experience of learning something well produces the capacity in a person to keep on learning throughout his or her life. My own field moves extraordinarily fast - a computer science degree probably turns over every seven years. This means one needs to learn well the fundamental concepts and theory, which are lasting and universal and enough of the particulars (i.e., the technology du jour) to learn how to evaluate and apply it to real problems and to learn new ones.

In terms of intellectual questions, the fundamental philosophical question I think about is what can computers do? And, given that, what ought they to do? Joseph Weizenbaum, a computer scientist from MIT asked this question years ago, and it has continued to fuel my intellectual thinking about my discipline and my work. It's a philosophical, technical, ethical, political, social question. People who develop real world systems are confronted with this question almost daily; someone who develops systems and doesn't think deeply about this question, and isn't interested in the fundamental underpinnings of computer science, can't answer it. I also like thinking about how computers can do what we want them to do; particularly, how we can empower computer users with a tool that becomes transparent in the work they do. How can we represent intuitively and cleanly inside the machines the objects of thought?

Are there particular authors/artists/thinkers whose work you interested and which you often ask students to examine?

The ideas of Jean Piaget as they affected one of the most influential people in my development, Seymour Pappert. Pappert is the author of the programming language Logo. Logo is an old language, but it has a lot to say about programming languages and people's ability to learn them, and their ability to make computer systems that work for others. One of the key ideas is "mind-sized chunks"; "chunking" is the idea of abstraction. Clearly this isn't a new idea, nor is it unique to computer science, but it is the most powerful idea of this discipline. The idea is that in order to solve problems with computers you have to abstract the problem. You have to identify the problem and abstract it in such a way that you can divide it into mind-sized chunks - chunks of information that one can look at on one sheet of paper and understand and work with. Being able to do this is not a technical skill; it is a philosophic, social, language, political ability. There is an important tension, though, between abstraction and the real world - over-abstraction can lose the applicability to real world problems, and the good that technology can do.
I like to read Pappert's book Mindstorms with students. Although some aspects of the book are technically dated, the main ideas are still right on. The ideas are important in Student Originated Software and in Data to Information. If students can get themselves around this set of ideas about how to look at and understand a problem they will have grasped one of the central concepts in software design.

Are there specific areas of interest or issues you want to work with students on in the current year?

Right now my interests are in scientific databases, particularly for ecology, global environmental change or molecular biology. Building a good campus "map" and databases to support long-term ecological research on campus are two ways to build the skills for addressing these problems, so I want to be a part of that effort. Another project I'd like to work on with students is a "Virtual Forest" - this would bring computer scientists together with ecologists and artists and complement the Forest Canopy Walkway effort.
One reason I am interested in these areas is that they address critical problems facing the world and I think the "Evergreen way" can contribute to solutions. We've done a fine job of Core programs, and in the next 25 years we should maintain that expertise, and look at expanding the concept of academic research as it is traditionally understood to encompass the collaborative, problem-oriented inquiry that form the basis of our curriculum. I believe we can make a real contribution to extending the idea of research in a way that is different from other schools.

To sum up, if students are interest in scientific information, virtual worlds, or databases I am interested in working with them. Specific computer science topics I am interested in include: object-oriented analysis, design, databases and programming languages, as well as graphical user interfaces, conceptual modeling and web-accessible databases.

Specific Skills, Competence, Techniques:

If computer science students want to work with me on research projects, contracts or internships, I'd like them to have had one of the Evergreen programsData to Information, Computability or Student Originated Software . Any of those will give enough of a foundation. For science students, I'd like them to have had the equivalent of one full year of fundamental concepts and skill building beyond the first year of college, and some background in software applications such as Excel or Stella. Similarly, artists should have the fundamental concepts, skills and abilities taught by introductory programs in that area, plus an interest in scientific computing and experience with application programs such as PhotoShop.
Object-oriented analysis and design are critical to being a good software engineer. This also translates into a command of object-oriented programming languages and development environments with Java and SmallTalk. Analysis is the ability to look at the world and identify the entities or objects that are of interest to model in a "virtual world" and to identify and write about the salient characteristics that can and should be represented within the computer. The decision to exclude or include some element of a system can have real consequences for both the utility and the viability of the model. One learns about whether an analysis is a good one by taking it through a full cycle from analysis, to design, programming, testing, use, trying it out and then starting over. We break these objects into mind sized chunks, then translate each into a language the computer understands. By working together through at least one cycle students begin to recognize their strengths and weaknesses and find ways to share their strengths.

What are key qualities you look for in student work? What techniques you use to assess their work? How do you help students assess their work?

Are students articulate in explaining about what they are going to do? What they are doing? And what they have done? Are they willing to take on new things and change their minds about things they have read that on first glance seemed outrageous or irrelevant? Are they passionate and focused about some aspect of the discipline they are engaged in? Do they work hard? Do they want to collaborate with others? Are they spending enough time on their studies? I will work with and care about any student who is working hard, but have little patience with those who don't work.
The most important quality of a good piece of work is that it is readable, whether it is a program or an essay. The student has thought about getting outside of his or her own head. A good program, like a good piece of writing, demonstrates that its author has an audience. One critical quality of good work is that a program works, even if it doesn't do everything it is supposed to do. The student needs to know what doesn't work even if he or she is not sure how to fix it. I do a lot of work with the process of presentation to help students know if they are capable of conveying their work to others. For example, in Student Originated Software we organize a software fair in the spring. Public presentation is a big part of our work.

Teaching Style:How would you characterize yourself as a teacher?

I came to Evergreen in part because my experience as an undergraduate at the College of William and Mary was fragmented and I saw Evergreen's structure as a real difference. I saw recent graduates of computer science programs come to work in the real world unable to communicate even with other programmers and I thought liberal arts colleges could make a difference. I like working with students year-long because I find that in the first quarter I barely get a chance to understand them; in the second quarter, I barely get a chance to think about suggestions to help the student improve and extend his or her learning. Finally in the third quarter there is a chance for us to work together and make something happen. One quarter is not always long enough for that cycle. I think students who take only one-quarter programs may be cheating themselves.
I like working on real-world problems. I am enthusiastic and have a "can do" attitude toward student projects and my own work. I try to be realistic about what is doable by breaking up a large problem into something that can have measurable deliverables (results) within a reasonable amount of time. A quarter or a year is too long to wait for an outcome; I need to see some milestones in between. I will not nag students about getting those milestones in - not that I don't expect them to do it, but I won't bug them about it because I have better things to do with my time.

What types of students tend to do well with you?

Articulate, open minded, passionate, or hard working. If a student has any one or two of those qualities we'll get along great.

What types of students have a hard time with you?

Passive aggressive students have a hard time - students who have problems but don't come forward and don't communicate. When something is not working in the program and they don't bring it forward we can't work together to solve the problem. Students who are not willing to work with others don't do well in my programs. Students are expected to put in 40 hours a week and if a student won't do that will have a hard time.

What do your student evaluations say about the way you come across to students?

Students frequently mention my enthusiasm and open-ness, and that I bring into class people from the outside who bring important perspectives to the work we do in class. Some have said that Student Originated Software is the best program they have taken - that it ties together their previous academic experience and gave them an understanding of the field. Some students have said I was helpful to them in improving their writing, that I helped them with organizing their projects. Some students said I was very busy and not always around; that's probably true, since I've found that as an Evergreen teacher and scholar I need to make time to enrich my own intellectual capital, or I won't have anything to offer.

Expectations about Contracts, Internships, and Evaluations
What qualities do you look for in a student who comes to you for work in a contract?

I want the student to have the fundamental skills of the discipline. I tend to do quite a few internships; I think this is a wonderful bridge between Evergreen and the outside. I enjoy this a lot and will help students who are prepared find internships. Students need to be able to work with a supervisor and handle themselves in a professional manner. I ask interns to keep in touch weekly by e-mail and, unless they are very far away, I always do site visits. I don't take many contracts because I like working in full time programs, but when I do I expect students to work independently. I take contracts where the content interests me so I can look forward to meeting regularly with the student.

What information do you want to see when a person comes to look for a contract?

I want to know that they have taken the fundamental coursework and programs to accomplish the work they are proposing to do, so I wouldn't take a freshman or sophomore. I want them to have a clear idea of what they want to do and a plan for doing it. A well-written proposal is a big help, but if students have a good idea I will help them develop that. I look for a time-line or a written vision statement. Just having a time-line doesn't mean one will stick slavishly to it, but if a plan gives a place to start and a way to proceed as one works through a project.

Other

I think Evergreen is a great place to go to school and to teach. People who don't like Evergreen won't like working with me. I am not saying they can't be critical of the college, but that my style and Evergreen's overlap in important ways.

Interviewer: Matt Smith

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Last Updated: March 15, 2007